[OVNI-SCIENCES] (sans objet)

[GBourdais]

James,
Bon retour sur la liste!
Il se trouve que je pars demain me mettre au vert quelques jours. Donc à bientôt.
Il y a un débat intéressant actuellement sur UFO Updates, au sujet du nouveau livre, complètement loufoque, sur Roswell, "Body
Snatchers in the desert", écrit par un ufologue anglais, Nick Redfern, qui avait jusque là une bonne réputation. Il est en train de
gagner rapidement le titre de nouveau débunker numéro1 aux Etats-Unis, où il réside depuis peu. J'ai participé à ce débat plus qu'à
ceux d'Ovni Science ! Visite suggérée aux archives de la liste, pour mai et juin, pour ceux qui lisent l'anglais, à:
http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/
Attention, la liste a été arrêtée pendant une dizaine de jours début juillet. Pour ceux qui n'ont pas le temps de fouiller, voici 
copie de l'un de mes messages ci-après (désolé, je n'ai pas le temps de traduire). Cà, c'est de l'ufologie d'aujourd'hui, pas de 
"l'ufologie de papa" (papa Hendry, par exemple. Je plaisante, bien sûr : c'est Vallée qui a dit entre autres que Roswell, c'était 
l'ufologie de papa).
J'ai bien l'intention d'en parler à Châlons, et je ferai sans doute aussi un article.

Cordialement
Gildas Bourdais
___________________________

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais at wanadoo.fr>
To: <ufoupdates at virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:23:08 +0200
Subject: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers'


To Nick Redfern, EBK and All,

I have now read your book "Body Snatchers in the Desert", and I
am sorry to say that I have more criticisms to make, following
my first comments based on your interview by Stuart Miller (my
messages of June 22 and 23). I have read the excellent critiques
of Kevin Randle (sent to me privately, which sould be posted
soon on the List) and others, notably the precise questions of
Robert Durant (coming soon as well) but I feel that I can add
some more points.

First, about the alleged transfer of prisoners from Unit 731 in
Manchuria to the United States, supposedly in order to continue
the horrible human experiments made there by the Japanese, the
question is: did it really happen? This is all important in your
theory since you claim it was the tremendous secret to be hidden
at all costs, even by spreading false stories of UFO crashes.
You say, citing your inside source Levine (p 85): "When the
Japanese surrendered in the wake of the atomic destruction of
Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945, a number of these and "a
quantity of still-living people were found in the remains of
Unit 731 facilities (and also German laboratories) by Allied
soldiers. These remains were subsequently transferred to the Los
Alamos Laboratories, New Mexico, where this dark and disturbing
research was continued".


There is a big problem here: this story is radically
contradicted by all historical studies and sources. In your
references, you mention the book of Peter Williams and David
Wallace "Unit 731: Japan's Secret Biological Warfare in World
war II" (1989). I have read it (in its French translation). It
is, indeed, a very complete history of these horrible
experiments, and it says clearly what happened at the end of the
war. When the Soviet army began to invade Manchuria, on August
9, 1945, the next day, the Japanese destroyed all buildings of
Units 731 and 100, and killed all the prisoners (the "Marutas").
They had orders to destroy every trace of the experiments, and
never talk about them.

This version is confirmed, for instance, in another book that I
just found: "The Pacific War" by the Japanese historian Saburo
Ienaga (1968; American edition by Pantheon Books, New York,
1978. this book has been praised by major American newspapers).
Here is what it says (pp. 188,189):

"According to former unit members, when the Soviet Union entered
the war on August 8, 1945, the Japanese tried to destroy every
trace of the 731 Unit's activities. The Maruta prisoners were
given food dosed with potassium cyanide: those who did not eat
the food were machine-gunned. The bodies were thrown into a pit
in a huge courtyard at the unit, doused with gasoline, and set
on fire. Because of the great number of corpses, they did not
burn thoroughly. The charred bodies were then put into a
pulverizer. Engineers dynamited the buildings, and all equipment
tools, and incriminating material were burned. Personnel of 731
Unit were given highest priority evacuation back to Japan,
before the rest of the Kwantung Army or other units". (Note: the
Soviet Union declared war on August 8, and began invading
Manchuria the next day).



According to other sources, at the time of the destruction of
Unit 731, there were only 150 prisoners left, also called
"logs", who were all killed. This destruction of all proofs is
of course the reason why it took a long time, after the end of
the war, to uncover the whole story of Unit 731. The first
American investigator, Lt. Col. Sanders, a young bacteriologist
from Camp Detrick in Maryland who arrived in Japan one week
after Japan surrendered, interrogated many leaders during three
months, but he was misled by his Japanese interpreter, Lt. Col.
Naito, who was a former student of General Ishi, the head of the
biological warfare program. Nevertheless, Sanders discovered
around September that Unit 731 was involved in human
experiments, and began to inform General MacArthur. Ishi then
proposed to give scientific information on these experiments in
exchange for complete immunity, for him and his colleagues,
which was eventually granted to them. On that matter, you are
apparently mistaken again when you write, quoting your insiders,
that a "massive" amount of documentation was found in 1945.
Actually, according to Williams and Wallace, American
authorities were still discussing in the summer of 1947 the
opportunity of making a deal with Ishi, which had been
recommended by General MacArthur. The deal was concluded the
following year, in spite of a negative advice of the State
Department. So, this calls into serious question your claims
about "massive" documentation found as soon as 1945.


Another important difference resides in the alleged use of
deformed and handicapped people for all these experiments,
according to your insiders. Actually, the Japanese experimenters
preferred to have subjects in good health: "Unless you work with
a healthy body, you cannot get results" (quote from the text:
"Unit 731. A half century of denial", at technologyartist.com.
See the message of Jan Aldrich of June 22). So, the real story
of the end of Unit 731 seems quite different from yours.


I also have some more comments about the alleged flying wings
and lifting bodies, derived from Horten models, that would have
been tested secretly in White Sands. I quote from your final
summary (p. 207): ".in May 1947, an experimental aircraft that
was borne out of the revolutionary aviation research of the
Horten brothers of Germany was test-flown from White Sands, New
Mexico". It was part of a larger project begun in 1946, of a
nuclear-powered aircraft. But according to all credible sources,
there were no such craft! First, about the Horten flying wings.
In fact, the Americans did find and bring back to the United
States a Horten prototype, the Horten H IX, with two jet
engines. There were, in Germany at the end of the war, two
models of Horten jet propelled, flying wings: - the Horten H IX
V2 which was first flown in Feb. 18, 1945, but crashed and
killed the pilot because of engine failure; - the Horten H IX
V3, the one which was taken to the United States. But it was not
finished, and never was. The American engineers were not
interested, probably for the simple reason that there were
already the Northrop wings, being tested and flown (with lots of
problems). Not in White Sands, which had only a rudimentary
airfield, but at Muroc Dry Lake (later Edwards AFB), which was
the adequate and only place for testing experimental planes like
that.

Now, about the "lifting bodies". This term refers to new designs
without wings tested much more recently, from 1963 to 1975, in
connection with construction of reentry vehicles like the space
shuttle. The original idea was conceived at NASA in 1957, by Dr
Alfred J. Eggers, Jr., according to the NASA fact sheet on
Lifting Bodies. See:

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/news/FactSheets/FS-011-
DFRC.html


These little, fat gliders were not the best design to carry a
team of Japanese handicapped prisoners, in great secrecy,
hanging under a huge balloon, in White Sands in 1947! On the
other hand, they did look a bit like certain descriptions of the
Roswell UFO by some witnesses.

There is just a word to say about Nazi flying saucers stories,
which you seem to believe, in your chapter 12 "Hitler's Disks".
These stories, which appeared at the beginning of the fifties
(at a time when a policy of sytematic UFO debunking was put in
practice) have long since been discarded by all serious aviation
historians. Nevertheless, they continue to be recycled
periodically. I am sad to find them again in your book (pp. 146,
147).

Now, lets's turn to the central piece of your book, the alleged
top secret White Sands experiment. You say in your final
conclusions (p. 207): "On board the vehicle were a number of
physically handicapped people who had been found in the remnants
of the Japanese military's Unit 731 laboratories and who were
used in this dark and disturbing experiment - the purpose of
which was to try to better understand the effects of nuclear-
powered flight on an air-crew. The experiment ended in disaster
when then craft crash-landed at White Sands, killing some of the
crew".


You reveal in your book a stunning aspect of the experiment.
According to one of your whistleblowers, the Colonel (p. 108):
"Experimental radiation shielding and an amount of radioactive
material was used that was meant to simulate as close as
possible the output that might be expected from a nuclear power
source when we have one. It malfunctioned. It crashed. Those are
the facts". Now, you have just answered a question of John
Sawyer (July 15). You cite another version given by the Colonel
(p. 106): "a device had been incorporated into the vehicle that
was designed to convert heat energy from an atomic pile into
electrical energy". This is even more confusing. Was it just
radioactive material (p. 108), or an atomic pile (p. 106)? I
must confess that I missed this version on first reading, simply
because it seemed so incredible to me. See below for the first
and only airborne test with an atomic pile, on a huge NB-36H
bomber, in 1955. At that time, atomic piles were very heavy.

So, in order to test the effects of irradiation, radioactive
material had been installed on board. Only the pilot was
protected. What a nightmare. What a dangerous experiment, if
only for the technicians in charge of the installation. And, why
do it at high altitude, with such great difficulties? What
difference does it make to irradiate a man on the ground or at a
high altitude? To add some cosmic radiations to the dose? I am
sorry to say that it does not make any sense to me. About
studies for protection from nuclear radiations, I just have to
refer to the text of Stan Friedman "STF on Redfern's Body
Snatchers.", posted on this list on June 23. He is an expert on
those matters and he does not believe your story.

And what about the risk of being publicly revealed in case of
accident? That's were the Roswell file comes in: this story fits
nicely with the dubious tale of the cameraman (revealed by
Santilli with the "alien autopsy film"), of a crash in the White
Sands area, with "freaks" and dangerous radioactivity on the
site.


Still about nuclear experiments, I also noted two big mistakes,
the first one allegedly revealed by a Col. Helmik to Tim Cooper,
about which you don't express any doubts. You cite Helmick (p.
120) revealing to Tim Cooper: "They test-flew an atomic-powered
craft near Trinity in July (1947) and that is when they found
something else in the desert".

How can you report such a an enormous tale without comment? It
is well known that no aircraft with a nuclear engine existed at
that time. Yes, there were some projects in the fifties, which
were abandoned at the beginning of the sixties. The only test
flights were to carry an atomic pile on board a huge NB-36H
bomber, which was still propelled with classic engines. There
was heavy protection for the crew. The first flight was on
September 17, 1955. There were 47 flights, after which the
contaminated plane was dismantled and buried. The second nuclear
mistake I noticed is the mention of "the 1946 Hydrogen bomb
tests on Bikini atolls", according to Martin Cannon. Maybe it
was just a slip of the pen, but you could have corrected it.

Now, I must turn to the next part of your story, the second

 flight, and accident, this time in the area of Roswell. You
 say, in your final summary (pp. 207, 208): "Two months later,
 in early July a second and similar vehicle was, once again,
 flown from White Sands. In this particular instance, the
 aircraft was affixed to a huge balloon array that was based
 upon advanced Fugo balloon designs developed in the closing
 stages of WW II by Japanese forces. The aircraft was piloted by
 a crew of Japanese personnel who had been specifically trained
 for the task and crashed near the Foster Ranch after being
 catastrophically struck by lightning".

In that second scenario, the risk that the horrible experiment
would be exposed publicly would have been even higher,
especially if the huge Fugo balloon drifted in the wind to an
undesirable place. What about a crash landing in a populated
area?

Anyway, this part of the story is supposed to "explain" the
discoveries near Roswell. But the descriptions of debris found
on the Foster ranch by a number of witnesess don't fit the
alleged equipment of your story: airplane and balloons, nothing
that could be identified as a "flying disk" by the elite Air
Force officers of Roswell, not to mention the pilot and "crew"
of handicapped Japanese prisoners! See, for that matter, the
message of Kevin Randle, who knows what he is talking about,
having interviewed several of these witnesses.


I wish to add a couple of remarks on that matter. You cite
Jacques Vallee who mentioned Saran as a possible culprit for a
confusion (p. 123): "Aluminized Saran, also known as Silvered
Saran, came from technology already available for laboratory
work in 1948. It was paper-thin, was not dented by a hammer blow
and was restored to a smooth finish after crushing".


First, Roswell was in 1947, not 1948. In addition to that, we
find in the thick Roswell Report of the Air Force (1995), a
table of results of tests measuring the strengh of various
substances, for eventual balloon fabrication.In the Technical
Report No 1 of New York University on constant level balloons,
dated April 1, 1948 and covering the period Nov. 1, 1946 to Jan.
1, 1948, there is a comparative table of measurements on various
products: Polyethylene, Saran, Nylon, Vinylite, Teflon,
Ethocellulose, Pliofilm, Nylon or silk fabric coated with
various products. Saran was noted as "poor" for tear resistance,
and was eliminated.

Similarly, you cite the "Colonel" (p. 132), saying that Brazel
picked-up "parts of the balloons that were polythene
(polyethylene) with an aluminium covering, which was not widely
seen then - and hardly ever by civilians back then."

But we learn in the Roswell Report that the large polyethylene
balloons became available only toward the end of June and
therefore could not be the origin of the Roswell incident.
Anyway, even if some had been already made available for the
super-top-secret White Sands experiments, how could the officers
of the Roswell atomic bomb unit believe that they had found a
"flying disk", and announce that to the world?


I have another comment to make on your claim that the famous
autopsy footage showed a human handicapped with progeria (chap
16). That has been already discarded by almost everybody on this
list, including me, but here is another angle of the story. If
your theory were right, it would have been incredibly foolish to
release such a film! In any case, the American and British
secret services, working together, had plenty of time to block
its release in London, discreetly, if they wanted to. We would
have heard no more of the film, vague rumors at best. On the
other hand, if the purpose was to trash the UFO crash theory, it
was highly effective. The Alien Autopsy Film was a scandal, and
a disaster, not only for Roswell, but for ufology as a whole.


A general criticism, upon which I want to insist, is that there
is a serious contradiction between the alleged, very tight
secrecy of your claimed experiment, and the known facts. First,
lots of human irradiation experiments were made, during many
years. This is well established thanks to the ACHRE
investigation, that you describe well in your book (pp 160,
161). But nothing surfaced in that investigation about the
alleged White Sands experiments. Your explanation is that it was
such a shame to carry on with dreadful experiments, similar to
those of Unit 731, that it is still the Big Secret that must be
hidden at all costs, even today, two generations later. But
then, why did so many whistleblowers, from various secret
services, reveal that awful secret to you, just asking you to
keep silent until 2001, as in the case of Mr Levine? As an
aside, if all this is true, which I doubt very much, your
"sources" can probably be identified, notably the old lady who
worked during several years on special projects at Oak Ridge.
But also Mr Levine and his informers, Mr T. of MOD Intelligence,
and Mr D., CIA operative; the Colonel; Bill Salter and "an old
friend from DOE"; Al Barker, from the Psychological Warfare
Center (PWC), and others.

The same question arises on reading again the Popular Mechanics
article of July 1997, which presented almost the same story, as
you admit yourself, with a Horten-Fugo hybrid craft and a
Japanese crew. They wrote: "Japanese engineers and pilots
brought to the U.S. after the war to work on the project could
have been the dead "alien" bodies recovered at the crash site".
Who was playing that peculiar game of dubious "revelations"?
Only missing in that first version of 1997 are, first the idea
that they were handicapped, deformed people (more confusing!),
secondly the absurd idea - the horrible experiment - that a
plane had been loaded with radioactive material, to irradiate
Japanese prisoners in flight.


Final note: it looks like your theory integrates as many aspects
as possible of the Roswell "file", mixing together everything,
from serious testimonies to the most fragile tales. For instance
the idea of a Horten aircraft: it is good to "explain" the
testimonies (some of which are quite credible) on an arrow -
shaped, or horseshoe - shaped alien craft. Gone, the UFO. The
radioactive material put on board "explains" the very dubious
story of the cameraman. The handicapped Japanese with progeria
come in appropriately to "explain" the confusion in Roswell, and
the autopsy footage by the same token, etc.


In all, this is, to me, a totally unbelievable story, for which
I have not found any credible evidence in your book.


Gildas Bourdais




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James" <james0001 at free.fr>
To: <debat at ovni-sciences.net>
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 2:34 PM
Subject: [OVNI-SCIENCES] (sans objet)


Salut Christophe, Gildas, Josée, et tous,

J'espère que je n'arrive pas comme un cheveu sur la soupe.
Ma nouvelle connexion est opérationnelle depuis 1 h. Je peux donc reprendre
les débats sur ovni-sciences, si on m'accepte toujours.

En établissant ma connexion, j'avais près de 600 mails (depuis la fin mai
!). J'en ai giclé 500, car impossible de les lire tous.

A très bientôt donc et amitiés,

James

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